Transcript: Clinton on Charlie Rose

Charlie Rose: Final Transcript

Guest:
Hillary Clinton

Session One

Charlie Rose:
Thank you for joining us

Hillary Clinton:
Thank you, Charlie.

Charlie Rose:
At this historic time in this historic city. Where were you when you heard the news that the Berlin Wall had come down?

Hillary Clinton:
I was in Arkansas, and Bill and I were living in the governor's mansion in Arkansas, and I remember watching the news coverage, which at that time was much more limited than it is today, over and over again, and talking with not only husband but lots of friends about what this meant, because I'm a child of the Cold War. I remember those “duck and cover” drills that we did in school, to protect ourselves against the Communist threat. I studied international relations in college, had a big interest in it in law school, and, you know, the Cold War was the defining structure of how we saw ourselves, and how we managed our affairs. It was an amazing moment. But that whole year was like that. The activities that swept the world, not just in Europe, but predominantly in Europe, that led to that moment, that iconic moment when the Wall was literally ripped apart by people. It was so moving to me.

Charlie Rose:
What's the significance, and what are the lessons we need to appreciate?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think there are so many, but among them is that freedom can never be denied as long as free people elsewhere continue to speak up and speak out about the right of all people to be free. As long as the Trans-Atlantic Alliance that was forged after World War II that ran the Berlin airlifts that kept this city and its people fed and warm, as long as free people are willing to invest in defense and to take measures that are necessary in a still-dangerous world, but that ultimately freedom resides in the hearts of people. And what we saw in Bratislava and Bucharest and Budapest and then sweeping across started in the Gdansk Shipyards. It was fueled by ship workers who had had enough. They were tired of being denied their rights as workers and as human beings. It was encouraged by a Pope who came from Poland and who knew the importance of human dignity and the freedom that people should be able to exercise. And so on that night in November, 20 years ago, it was a swelling up that had taken years. It was like a tsunami. The earthquake had happened, and the ripple effects were occurring, and then it just washed over and the Wall came down, and there was this great sense of relief and gratitude at the sacrifice of so many who had come before, and of the leadership that stayed the course, that didn't go too far and provoke the military conflict, but who made it very clear by resolve and commitment and a bipartisan basis, starting with Harry Truman all the way through George H.W. Bush, that we stood with the people in Berlin, of Germany, and of Europe.

Charlie Rose:
What are the walls that we have to tear down today?

Hillary Clinton:
Well you know we have new walls, the walls of the 21st century. They may not be, you know, the visible of the concrete and the barbed wire as we saw here in Berlin, but they are equally confining and defining. They are walls of ignorance and extremism. They're walls of oppression and impoverishment. They are not necessarily walls constructed by ideology but they are walls that exist in the mindsets of those who would try to turn the clock back on human progress, deny women their rights, use tools like suicide bombing and terrorism to try to assert themselves, and we have to, in the West, along with our friends and allies throughout the rest of the world understand that this is our challenge of the 21st century. We can't walk away from it. We have to be smart about how we address it. But it is what calls us to action today.

Charlie Rose:
All right. Let me talk about two examples. You met with Chancellor Merkel.

Hillary Clinton:
Yes.

Charlie Rose:
Is Germany on board, with respect to Afghanistan?

Hillary Clinton:
I think Germany is committed to the effort in Afghanistan. They're waiting like the rest of the world is, the United States, and through President Obama to announce our intentions and our way forward. But they have a deep understanding of why this is important for NATO, why this is important for the larger international community. And I think that, given the right to measures of accountability that we need to be seeking from President Karzai and his government, we're going to see a commitment, not just from Germany but from many of our NATO allies.

Charlie Rose:
Yet might they make up whatever the gap is between what General McChrystal is seeking and what the United States is prepared to provide, in terms of troops?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think we have to wait for the president's announcement, but we will be as we have been, consulting very deeply with our allies, and talking about what we want to see from them, in order to have this integrated military and civilian strategy, because, remember, it's not just about troops on the ground, it's about making sure that the people of Afghanistan see the results of this effort, that they have more faith in their own government as an entity that can deliver for them, and so there needs to be a lot more civilian and financial support as well as military and troop support. But, in my conversations with a lot of our allies, not only in NATO but beyond, there is an openness and a readiness to participate.

Charlie Rose:
To look at it in a new direction.

Hillary Clinton:
Absolutely. Yes.

Charlie Rose:
Now when you look at that question of Afghanistan and those who say can we win, can we stop the Taliban, is your answer yes?

Hillary Clinton:
My answer is yes, that right now we've been somewhat in a holding pattern because of the Afghan elections. It's hard to make a new policy until we know who is in the new government and until we have very clear discussions about what is expected from them. This is not just a one-sided contract here. But I also think that the momentum, as described by Stan McChrystal and others, that the Taliban seems to have acquired, can definitely be broken. There is no evidence whatsoever that the vast majority of the people of Afghanistan want to see a return to the Taliban. In poll after poll and anecdotal evidence as well, they remember the brutality and oppressiveness, the perversion of religion that was used as a basis for the grabbing and holding of power that they experienced under the Taliban.

Charlie Rose:
Beyond that, is the Taliban in control in Afghanistan a threat to the United States?

Hillary Clinton:
I believe it is. I believe it is a threat because I believe that it once again provides a safe haven, because what we have seen is that al-Qaeda is now part of a syndicated terror. It inspires, it directs, it trains, equips, funds other groups within this syndicate.

Charlie Rose:
Like they did to Africa.

Hillary Clinton:
Yes and to many of us, the principle objective is still to defeat, capture, kill the al-Qaeda leadership. We do think that is important. It's not a marginal issue. It's a core issue for us. But we also realize that there are many aspects to the threat from extremism that have to be addressed. It is imperative that there not be safe haven for al-Qaeda and its syndicate, its allies in Afghanistan.

Charlie Rose:
And that's what the Taliban would deliver if they were in control.

Hillary Clinton:
They would, in parts of Afghanistan if not to -- if they couldn't take over the entire country, because of resistance from the Afghans themselves, and allies like us, they would certainly establish a beachhead and would have a broader area of operation.

Charlie Rose:
So what do you say to mothers and fathers as you know the question we were saying: “Are you asking me to send my son or my daughter to Afghanistan where I am essentially fighting for a corrupt or fraudulent government?”

Hillary Clinton:
No, but you're not; you're fighting for the United States. You are fighting to protect our homeland and our people. We often don't get to choose the battlefield that we're on. We have to adjust to whatever the circumstances are that we find, and much of what President Obama and the rest of us in this situation have been working on for the last eight months, is that given the failures of the last eight years to capture and kill the al-Qaeda leadership to try to stabilize Afghanistan, we have to recommit ourselves, because we do think it's in our interests. We do think it's in our security interest. And I feel very strongly that the young men and women who are stationed in Afghanistan, are really doing what has to be done on the front lines of the war against terrorism.

Charlie Rose:
And they understand and believe in the mission.

Hillary Clinton:
Yes, well, and it's important that the entire American public understand and believe in a mission because, as a democracy, we have to support those that we send to the battlefield.

Charlie Rose:
Do you believe at this point that the American public understands the mission, or are they waiting for the president now to redefine the mission and the strategy.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think that -- yes. And I think that they are waiting for the results of this review. Back in March, when the president made his speech about what we were going to do going forward, he ordered new troops into Afghanistan. He saw a change of commander, which is unusual. In order to better fulfill our mission. And he said we will be revisiting this after the Afghan elections. It's just taken longer to get the elections over than we had thought. So he will be clearly defining the purpose of our mission, how it's going to be reconstituted.

Charlie Rose:
What's taking so long? And what's the debate inside?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I have to say that I think we went through eight years where it at least appeared on the outside that there wasn't enough time taken, that there wasn't a thought given as to what we were trying to achieve and how we would achieve it. There were a lot of mid-course corrections. Witness the surge in Iraq. And part of what the president is trying to do with his National Security team is to go and seek out information that is of direct relevance, evaluate that information, make sure that we are putting forth the best thoughts in order to fulfill the mission that he's going to set. You know, I think it's unfortunately, Charlie, that we live in a time when people expect instantaneous reaction. Though a huge crisis, get out in front of the cameras and talk about it even when you don't have all the facts, because the facts are hard to gather. And I think that what the president is determined to do is to feel as positively focused and comfortable as possible.

Charlie Rose:
Fair enough, but if he -- are you looking for the answer to come questions. And if so, what is that question, and what is the debate about that question?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think that the question really is how best to define the mission so that we and our allies and publics and the world understand what we're trying to achieve. The mission was frankly confused. There was a lot of talk during the prior administration that came pretty close to nation-building, transforming Afghanistan. There was a lot of confusion about what that meant and how to do it. We wanted to be sure that we strip down and focus on what is most important. I mean, we fight wars to protect America -- our values, our interests, our allies. We fight wars so that we can achieve an endpoint that we think is in furtherance of that. So if we're going to fight this war, then everybody better be very clear what it is that we're trying to do. Would we like to see education levels in Afghanistan improve? Absolutely. Is that directly in our national security interests? Probably not, so we want to help but we want to keep focused on what is clearly in our national security interests, to dismantle, disrupt and defeat Al-Qaeda and its extremist allies. Well, then, let's define our extremist allies more carefully. Let's not just paint with a broad brush. Is some, you know, poor young man, who has no economic prospects, who is basically volunteered to the Taliban by his village so that his village is not attacked by the Taliban. Is he our extremist foe, or is he someone who can be persuaded to leave the Taliban and once again re-enter society? These are questions that go to the operational aspects. I mean, it's easy to paint the big picture. You know, we're there and, you know, good for us. How does that translate into what we do on the ground? How does that actually affect troop decisions and deployment decision and expenditures of civilian dollars? So I think that this review, which has been more thorough and more debated than what we're told ever happened previously, gives us a platform on which the president can stand?

Charlie Rose:
But it has to be a certain element of government, because if the strategy is within 10 areas, say, to take and hold and build, which is the operative idea, is it not? So give protection to the civilians. That's the only way you'll have an effective counterinsurgency strategy.

Hillary Clinton:
Right, but let's think about counterinsurgency. Counterinsurgency is protecting population centers.

Charlie Rose:
And they have to be a part of that themselves.

Hillary Clinton:
They have to be a part of that themselves. But it may mean that you don't deploy in some areas where there's not very much in population to speak of, but instead you only do counterterrorism in those areas. So you try to concentrate your troops where we can get the maximum stability. And when we talk about governing, it's not just what happens in Kabul; it's what happens on the ground in local districts. If you look at a map of Afghanistan and you really which districts are under government control, meaning the central government in Kabul. What are under local government controls? What are contested? What are under Taliban control? I mean, there is a varied picture here, and part of what we want to do is to convince the people of Afghanistan that it's not just clear, hold, and build; it's also transition. We don't want to stay a day longer than we must, in order to transition over to forces and security that is in the hands of the Afghans themselves.

Charlie Rose:
More and more, the evidence that you see indicates that that is possible? Because you're sitting in these national security meetings -- there've been some 20, with national security leaders. It's possible to achieve these objectives, that the Afghans themselves, you know, have the capacity to do that?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, they have some of the capacity, and part of our challenge will be to provide as much as the rest of the capacity. We know they are fiercely loyal to their family, village area. We know that they are not afraid to fight. We know that there is a great appetite for better governance and for some services that can improve their living standards. So we know that the people of Afghanistan are seeking something more, but what they seek may not be what we would ideally want. And part of our discussion has been to really sort this out. What is it we can do in a, you know, period of time that is reasonable, that will give the people of Afghanistan the capacity to defend themselves. I mean, the most common refrain we hear as people go out and visit in various parts of Afghanistan, particularly in the south, where, you know, the Pashtun population is, is, “we want your help. We want you to protect us and give us the security we need until we can do it ourselves, as soon as possible, and then we want you to leave.” That's a pretty good summary of what we want, too.

Charlie Rose:
Yeah, and you have to convince them this is not an occupation.

Hillary Clinton:
Of course not. We have no interest in their territory. We have no interest in staying there. But we do have an interest in making sure it doesn't become a breeding ground or a staging ground for terrorism.

Charlie Rose:
You were recently in Pakistan.

Hillary Clinton:
Yes.

Charlie Rose:
You are convinced the Pakistanis now understand that the Taliban is their enemy as much as their long-held opposition to India, and they're prepared to do something.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, they're certainly evidencing that. This very forceful response -- first in Swat, now in South Waziristan -- illustrates a commitment to take on the Pakistani Taliban. I think in my conversations with both the civilian government leaders as well as the military intelligence leaders, there is an awareness that the Taliban not just about somebody else's fight, it is a direct attack on the authority of the Pakistani government. When you have extremists attacking your general army headquarters, your intelligence offices, who go right at the Islamic University in Islamabad, this is not some foreign plot. These are people, homegrown, who want to overthrow various aspects of the Pakistani government and control territory within the boundaries of Pakistan, so there's no doubt in my mind that they see this as a direct threat.

Charlie Rose:
And they're prepared to go even as far as North Waziristan.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I don't want to speak for themselves. They've got their hands full right now in South Waziristan, but they understand, too, that you can just play Whack-a-Mole. You can't just knock down the Taliban somewhere, and expect you're done, because they have, unfortunately, created this syndicate, this network of interconnected terrorist groups, and the Pakistanis have to be vigilant. But the people of Pakistan are much more in favor of what the army's doing than at any point in the past.

Charlie Rose:
You raised a question at a press conference about Osama bin Laden. Did you get any information as to where he is, and why they have not been able to reach him?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I did raise that question, because I was very willing to hear all the questions and the concerns from the people in the government of Pakistan. And there are reasons for their concerns. We haven't always been the most consistent or understanding partner and ally over the course of our relationship, and we do bear some of the responsibility, frankly, for helping to create the very terrorists that we are now all threatened by. So, after, you know, listening and responding and doing what I could to dispel some of the myths and the stereotyping that goes on, I said, “Americans have questions, too. We find it hard to believe that nobody knows where the al-Qaeda leadership is.” And I think that there is no evidence that anybody in the government at the top levels knows, but what we're trying to encourage is their awareness and acceptance of the fact that the al-Qaeda leadership is a raid against them as well and still poses a direct threat to us. I mean, we have had the arrest just recently of Zazi, someone who trained in an al-Qaeda training camp in Pakistan. So, we're going to keep pressing. This is the highest priority to us. And we're encouraged and supportive of what Pakistan is doing against their enemies. We want more help against our common enemies.

Charlie Rose:
And they've been successful again some of the Pakistani Taliban leaders.

Hillary Clinton:
Yes.

Charlie Rose:
Let me move to Iran for a second -- well, for longer than a second. Where does that stand now? Because I interviewed Mohamed ElBaradei on Friday, and he said that the Iranians are reluctant to take the deal, because they reluctant to give up their nuclear material, and he suggested that perhaps Turkey might be a more amenable repository for that, rather than Russia. Are you involved in this idea or not?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, we're very involved in it. And let me just put it in context. When this idea was first jointly proposed, it was in response to the Iranians' request to the International Atomic Energy Agency for assistance in refueling their Tehran research reactor, which, so far as we know, is not at all connected to their other enrichment program or any program that would lead to weaponization.

Charlie Rose:
It had medical purposes.

Hillary Clinton:
Medical isotopes, and we happen to believe that's true. So when the Iranians made that request, the United States and Russia together made a joint response, and we said that we would be willing to take out the 1200 or so kilograms of known low-enriched uranium, have it reprocessed, and then have it returned to fuel the research reactor. The Iranians accepted that, in principle, and continued to be very favorably disposed toward it at the first meeting on October 1st.

Charlie Rose:
And the person up there representing, but the president, Ahmadinejad, [unintelligible], specific?

Hillary Clinton:
That's right. So it appeared as though there would be a meeting of the minds, which would be immensely reassuring to the world that if Iran were willing to do this, it would demonstrate good faith on their part, it would open the door to further talks about their nuclear program, and then I think we have seen a lot of confusion and debate within the Iranian leadership to some measure fueled by their internal discussions arising out of the elections and the opposition they face, some of it is personality driven. We understand all of that.

Charlie Rose:
But it's coming from all sides. I mean it's coming from the Ayatollah on one side and also Larajani [spelled phonetically] on another side and then even some people who are part of the reform movement.

Hillary Clinton:
Well we also believe a lot of it is jockeying. And some of it has got more to do with Ahmadinejad than it does with us or with this proposal. Nevertheless, it is our very firm conviction, and there has been absolute unity among the so-called P5 plus one, which of course includes both Russia and China, that we expect a favorable response from Iran.

Charlie Rose:
Soon.

Hillary Clinton:
Soon, yes. I mean we understand the internal political dynamics, and we've been I think patient in helping them to see that we're serious. There are certain safeguards that could be agreed to that they would get their uranium back once it had been enriched, but they have to take this step, as a confidence-building measure, with the international community. And I hope that they will do so.

Charlie Rose:
And if they don't?

Hillary Clinton:
Well we'll cross that bridge when we actually come to it.

Charlie Rose:
Well the first action is you go to the United Nations for sanctions. Has anything changed that would make the Russians at that point more amenable to supporting sanctions because many argue that if the Russians support sanction, so will the Chinese?

Hillary Clinton:
Well I've been encouraged by the comments from President [unintelligible] just recently again over the weekend in interview with [unintelligible] here in Germany where he had talked about perhaps there will be a need for sanctions, and I hope that if it comes to that which we still would like to avoid by this cooperative arrangement, that we will have everyone onboard and there has already been an agreement entered into by the P5 plus one, including Russia and China, that we were on a dual track. We were on one track which was negotiations, diplomacy, agreements like that affecting the Tehran Research Reactor, but in the absence of progress there, we were on a second track, which would look to assert more pressure and impose more sanctions, whether that's going to be necessary or what the content would be and where they would be sought you know there is not anything magical about the U.N. There can be other ways of imposing sanctions so we are in the process of exploring that with others.

Charlie Rose:
Is the Atlantic Alliance going to help?

Hillary Clinton:
Absolutely.

Charlie Rose:
Are they going to be prepared to enforce?

Hillary Clinton:
Well we've seen an increase in actions by many of the nations of Europe because they understand that this is a threat to them, you know when the president made his decision about changing the missile defense architecture, it was in response to a better understanding that our technical and defense experts had that Iran was further advanced in short and medium range missiles than long term missiles. So short and medium range missiles can hit every part of Europe. So I think the Europeans understand that this is a very important step for them, to try to help us and others to assert pressure against Iran.

Charlie Rose:
Secretary Gates has said that a military option probably would only delay for a year or two.

Hillary Clinton:
Well no one wants to go to that. I mean we've always said that every option is on the table. Our goal is to prevent or dissuade Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. And we've made it clear that they have a right to nuclear power that is civil and peacefully used.

Charlie Rose:
Mohammed ElBaradei said that they don't trust us, that the level of trust and we obviously have reason not to trust them. Now you assume, I assume, that there are other facilities that also we may not have discovered so far or they have not acknowledged so far.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, we don't have any evidence of that but obviously we're always vigilant and looking for anything that might suggest another concealed undisclosed facility. I'm not in any way downplaying the lack of trust. I mean we have 30 years of mistrust, misunderstanding, and misaligned objectives. I mean, the Iranians not only worry us because of their nuclear program, they worry us because of their support for terrorism, their support for the military wing of Hezbollah, their support for Hamas, their interference in the internal affairs of their neighbors, trying to destabilize gulf countries and other countries throughout the greater region. So Iran has given us many reasons to worry about their motivation and their action, but I think what President Obama has tried to do since becoming president, is to create a dynamic where, look, we don't have to trust or love each other to understand that it is in our interest to try to stabilize the world. It is not in Iran's interest to have a nuclear arms race in the Gulf where they would be less secure than they are today. It is not in Iran's interest or the Iranian peoples' interest, to be subjected to very onerous sanctions, so the president has reached and has really gone the extra mile to try to engage with the Iranians. If they cannot overcome their mistrust and their internal political dynamic, then we have to do what we think is in our best interests.

Charlie Rose:
They'll have to deal with the consequences.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, yes, of course. I mean, that's the way the world works.

Charlie Rose:
Is there anything that we can do to say to them, “We understand your fear. We understand your paranoia. We ask you what is your -- what can we do to convince you that nuclear weapons are not in your interest?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, those are certainly the messages that the president has publicly stated, as you know. He's had private messages sent to the supreme leader. He has charged the rest of the administration to convey that message. And I think it was significant when this administration said, “We accept your right, under appropriate safeguards, to have civil nuclear power. We are not going to be demonizing you and calling you names. We'd much rather have a civil, diplomatic relationship that could lead to negotiation, that would lower the temperature and try to diminish the mistrust. But it takes two to do that, and certainly the way the Iranian government handled the election, the response to legitimate opposition, has been very disconcerting, because it demonstrates they don't trust their own people. It's not only that they don't trust us; they don't trust many Iranians. So when you get to that level of --

Charlie Rose:
If you look at the election, they have reason to.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, that's right. And so, you get to that level of mistrust all the way around you. How you break through that is what we're looking for, but it may or may not be possible. That's pretty much up to the Iranians.

Charlie Rose:
Someone wrote about this particular place that we are sitting, that you k now, there was a moment in history when ships slid the right way, as to whether at that moment in Iran, after that election when they're more than a million people in the street, it went the other way, that there was not something that --

Hillary Clinton:
But I don't think that's the end of the story, Charlie. I don't think that's the end of the story at all. I think that that's part of what we see going on. If this were a confident leadership, they would accept the Tehran research reactor deal. They would not be worried about it. This is not a confident leadership because of the pressures that are coming from within Iran as well as from outside.

Charlie Rose:
So, whatever happened in that election, the aftermath has not been capped and will continue to --

Hillary Clinton:
There's -- I don't think by any means that's the end of that story.

Charlie Rose:
All right. China. You leave here. You go to Singapore, then you go with the president. You go to the Philippines, then you go with the --

Hillary Clinton:
That's right.

Charlie Rose:
When will you be back in the United States?

Hillary Clinton:
Good question.

Charlie Rose:
And how much packing do you have to do?

Hillary Clinton:
Oh, it's unbelievable.

Charlie Rose:
Some kind of a trip. And how do you survive all of that?

Hillary Clinton:
Oh goodness. Well --

Charlie Rose:
I guess some of that is First Lady, but I mean, this is --

Hillary Clinton:
This is pretty intense. This is, by far, the most demanding schedule, both of travel and intense work at home, that one could imagine. And part of it was we felt like we had a lot of fence-mending and important diplomatic engagements to do around the world, becoming as we did after the last administration.

Charlie Rose:
Okay, but let me say -- that's a good point, before we go to China. So what's the message of the Obama administration and from the secretary of state about the United States and its foreign policy intentions today?

Hillary Clinton:
That we are back --

Charlie Rose:
Back as?

Hillary Clinton:
Back as fully engaged. We're not leaving any part of the world unattended to because that was one of the most common complaints I heard when I chose to go to Asia for my first trip. It was because there was this sense that the United States was departing from the Pacific, a place that we had been intimately involved in for much of the 20th century. And at a time when there's a lot of questions about how the Pacific Asian region will be organized and what role the United States will play. So, first and foremost, that we are in engaged; we are not just focused on the one or two most pressing trouble spots that we have to deal with, that we are working to bring people together to create more partnership. We went from a bipolar world that ended when the wall came down here in Berlin, and we want a multi-partner world, where we can make cause on transnational challenges like climate change or H1N1 influenza and where we can bring partners to the table on some of the difficult security challenges. Look at what we achieved with North Korea. We got China and Russia, along with Japan and South Korea working with us to impose the toughest sanctions ever. Now, why, then, is North Korea beginning to say they want to talk. They want to talk. It's because they see a united front against them. So we really believe that engagement is not an end in itself, but it's the door you walk through to get to the table, to get into the negotiations that can possibly lead to improving conditions regionally and globally. And I'm very committed to doing that, but it is an intensely personal, relationship-building, endeavor.

Charlie Rose:
You also have said, as a hallmark, “We want to listen.” And so that's a precedent that you have in your political career.

Hillary Clinton:
Right.

Charlie Rose:
So what are you [inaudible]? What is the role they see, whether it's Europe or whether it's China, or whether it's the Middle East? Because some people say there will be no peace in the Middle East without the United States there doing something. But on the other hand, you've got to have people who are willing to accept that role.

Hillary Clinton:
Right. Well, you ask a complex question that raises a lot of interconnected issues. First, when I'm listening, what I'm hearing is that people know the United States cannot solve all the problems of the world. But they know that without the United States the chances of solving any of the problems are pretty remote. So they want us to be engaged, to be leading, both by example and through engagement. They also believe that the United States cannot lead the field on any of these problems. And as complicated and as difficult as they might be, we have to be there. We have to be working. Now, we may be more engaged or less engaged depending on our assessment. We may leave the parties to themselves for a series of time and stand on the sidelines, or we may be intensely working with them. That's a calibration. But the overall fact is the United States must be present. And you would think in a world that's moved toward virtual reality that that might mean something other than what it meant, you know, two centuries ago, but in fact, it means we have to be there. We have to show up. When I went to the ASEAN meeting, it meant so much to them that I sat there and we talked about everything from the environmental conditions in the lower Mekong Delta to what we were going to do about the Burma. And we are rebuilding that, which I think is essential. But equally important, is to set out our own objectives and the strategies designed to achieve those objectives. And a lot of that takes patience. And part of what we're facing, Charlie, is the United States, unfortunately, has lost leverage in the world because of the global economic crisis and because of the steps that this administration had to take to try to prevent, frankly, a worldwide depression, which means increasing our debt, going into the biggest deficits we've seen since World War II. That undermines some of the capacity we need to have to influence events.

Charlie Rose:
Explain that to me, because I was going to ask you about that: what is the impact of the global economic crisis? You are suggesting that our leverage is less?

Hillary Clinton:
Yes, I am suggesting that.

Charlie Rose:
Because our economic power is less, or because they look at us as creating an economic crisis that had great detriment to them?

Hillary Clinton:
I think both. I think both. I mean, what we have done by moving from the creditor nation that my husband's policies helped to created to the debtor nation that we inherited from the Bush administration, made even worse by the lapses in regulation and the failure of oversight that led to the global economic recession, has raised questions in people's minds. Because one thing the world believed about the United States is that we knew how to run an economy. We knew how to produce wealth. We knew how to create economic opportunity and consumption that was unmatched in the history of the world.

Charlie Rose:
And they had bought into the idea of markets and capitalism and all of that [inaudible].

Hillary Clinton:
That's right. And I give the president and his economic team, you know, for navigating us through the worst of this crisis and beginning not only the recovery economically but the recovery of confidence. But the fact is when we do have that recovery and we can all look at it, touch it and feel it and feel better about ourselves and the world, we're going to be hugely in debt, and we're going to have deficits that will impinge upon our ability to make decisions and will also affect our capacity to deal with other countries because we are in debt to them.

Charlie Rose:
China may very well say that this is not the best place for us to buy debt.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, there's all kinds of countries that have that kind of potential. So, we're operating on multiple levels at once. We have to rebuild our own economy. We have to, once we get through this crisis, begin to restore fiscal responsibility and sovereignty. At the same time we have engage the rest of the world. We have to buy time with the rest of the world. And I think we're managing that about as well as we could, given the hands that we're playing.

Charlie Rose:
Do you think we have the political will to deal with the deficit?

Hillary Clinton:
We're going to have to. I don't think it's going to be a question. But what the president is trying to do is tee up some changes that will be to the benefit of us, economically, over the long term. Dealing with health care costs is part of dealing with the deficit and dealing with the increasing competitiveness around the world, for example.

Charlie Rose:
So, you go to China, and you sit down with -- you and the president sit down with Hu Jintao, the president of China, and he says to you, “Madame Secretary, how do you see us? How do you see China over the next 50 years? And how do you see this relationship, that you were the dominant country, but we feel pretty good about where our economy is going and we want to play a role?”

Hillary Clinton:
And well they should. I think that there's no doubt, at least in my mind, that China has earned the right to play a role. And the rise of China is inevitable. The Chinese are focused on improving the standard of living of their people, on playing a leadership role -- not only regionally but globally -- and we are working to make sure that there's a peaceful rise, that there's a good understanding between the United States and China. What we called for was a positive, cooperative, and comprehensive relationship. Secretary Geithner, on our side, share our strategic and economic dialogue, which met for the first time at the end of July, where we're talking about a broad array of economic and strategic issues, because we want to have an in depth relationship with China.

Charlie Rose:
What's an example of -- I know the climate change deal we want to make with respect to climate change and emissions standards and all of that, and they're really moving forward, clearly, on some areas of that. What's the strategic possibility, strategic, in terms of the United States and China? What can they do together?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, we can do a lot together. If the United States and China work together as we have in the G20 process, we can help to stabilize the economic situation in the world and begin a recovery and a return to growth. It would not be possible if it were just one or the other. It had to be in tandem and then to work with the other members of the G20. When it comes to climate change and clean energy, China's making a big bet on clean energy technology. That's an important bet for them to make.

Charlie Rose:
A bigger bet than we are.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I'd like to see us, you know, begin to do more on that.

Charlie Rose:
Solar.

Hillary Clinton:
Yeah, but you can't fault China for being a market opportunity as well as an environmental necessity so that they're moving. They're moving, in large measure, because they see that this is beneficial to them but also because they want to be part of the world leadership in dealing with these transnational problems. They know that they will have on their doorstep the effects of erratic climate development that they will have to deal with. They know that they can't just turn a blind eye to North Korea's provocative behavior, that it's very destabilizing and it's not to be left others. So they've been playing a much more involved role in trying to coral the North Koreans.

Charlie Rose:
Are they doing everything you wanted them to do with respect to North Korea?

Hillary Clinton:
They have been extremely helpful with respect to North Korea.

Charlie Rose:
Africa, especially Darfur. Are they doing everything you want them to do there?

Hillary Clinton:
They are more understanding of the long term consequences to their position in Sudan than they were before. What I mean by that is the Chinese have natural resource interests in Sudan. Dafur is destabilizing. The north-south situation could become violent and lead to conflict again. That would put at risk Chinese investments. So I think that they are looking in a broader way than they perhaps have about their responsibility. It's not just “We've got to find resources to feed the engine of the economy to produce 8 percent growth because we have so many hundreds of millions of people still living below poverty,” it's “Okay, we do have to do that, but we have to be conscious and aware of the larger strategic interests that we have to be part of.”

Charlie Rose:
How about Iran? Where are they in helping you, because they have energy contracts with Iran.

Hillary Clinton:
Yeah, they do. Well, they signed on to the agreement that I and the other foreign ministers signed in New York during the United Nations General Assembly about the two-track approach to Iran. The foreign minister with whom I work, mostly Minister Yang, was at the table, so they know that this is complicated. What would be the worst nightmare for Chinese energy needs? If war broke out in the larger Gulf or the Middle East. That would be devastating to them. So, they know --

Charlie Rose:
Supplies go down, prices goes up.

Hillary Clinton:
Absolutely. And whether the supply, which was more limited, could even get delivered would be a question. So I think that they are, as they play a larger role in the world, seeing the complexity that we all are facing and being much more open to listen.

Charlie Rose:
A Chinese official said to me, “If the United States would find a source of oil for us outside of Iran, we may very well be more amenable.”

Hillary Clinton:
Right. Look, energy fuels all of us, and we don't happen to get any oil from Iran, but if we were dependent upon Iran, we'd have to be scrambling to figure out what we were going to do in order to enforce the international communities' expectations on Iran. So we know that China has to be aware of their own energy needs, which is why their move toward clean energy and alternative forms of energy is so important over the long run.

Charlie Rose:
What do you say to them when they say, “Madame Secretary, I'm worried about protectionist sentiment in your Congress. I've seen examples of it, and a trade war would be terrible.”

Hillary Clinton:
We agree a trade war would be terrible. But this is not just a one-way street. We have concerns about some of the actions that the Chinese government --

Charlie Rose:
Are they responsive and understanding?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I mean, everybody works from their own national interests and their own economic interests. Who would expect anything different? But I think the conversation is much more candid and open and very clear on our part as to how we don't want to see walls of protection, but we also need more guarantees for intellectual property in China. We watched some of the problems with exporting natural resources out of China, which they don't permit. So there's a lot to be discussed on both sides.

Charlie Rose:
Let me move to this job that you hold, as we have a few more minutes left here. Number one, how does what you had done before -- you know, Churchill famously said “Everything I've done has prepared me for this moment,” when he went to 10 Downing during World War II. How does being First Lady of Arkansas, First Lady of the United States, a senator from New York, and a presidential candidate with substantial political support influence, make you Secretary of State today?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think that a lot of my experience, which was rooted in not only travel but working on international issues, being involved with many of the leaders, some of whom are still there, others are still influential --

Charlie Rose:
And that makes a difference in what way?

Hillary Clinton:
It makes a difference because I come as a known commodity. I think it accelerates the relationship to a point where we can move into the business side of what we are trying to do together. I also know a lot of the players. I understand what their needs are. It is not take it or leave it. It's like, okay, how can we, you know, work toward as much of a win-win as possible, I don't think we're in a zero-sum game, I believe that's kind of ancient history, given how the world works today. It is also been quite helpful for me to have been in political life, because even in societies that we view as lacking in democratic politics, there's always politics. Maybe it's Maltese [spelled phonetically] politics. Maybe you have to rise to the party, maybe you have to fend off opposition from those who don't agree with your policies, and you have to be at least aware of public opinion, because even in closed societies, public opinion can rise up and, you know, cause demands on you that you have to manage. So I understand this. I mean, I know what it's like to have to either put together a coalition or deal with the consequences of the public either being for you or against you. And I've said on numerous occasions, look, I come to this job not as a diplomat or as an academic, but as a political person, and that's why I know why this is difficult for you. And I've been really impressed by how quickly that creates a bond with some of the leaders. You know, in some of the countries that I've visited where we're asking the leadership to make some very hard choices that we think are in their interest but certainly in our interests, being able to talk about our political background, I mean, it's well known to Senator Kerry and I were kind of a tag team in dealing with President Karzai in the lead-up to his decision to accept a second round, and I was talking about—

Charlie Rose:
Now, what do you mean by tag team, you realized he was there, and—you realized that he had some problems with certain people and you realized it was better to deal with it—Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, in fact, than—

Hillary Clinton:
Well, in Afghanistan. Right, well it was, first of all ,the fact that John was there was so fortuitous, we couldn't have ever scripted it, but he was there at exactly the right time. And he and I talked about, he got fully briefed by Ambassador Holbrooke about sort of the state of play. And he and I talked about how we made a political argument to Karzai, you know, you can come in and say look, it's the right thing to do, the international community expects you to do it, you must respond, but, if you come in and you say, look, I won and lost elections, I know what this feels like, I understand how upset you are that you feel like you've won, and all of those, regardless of whether they were specifically fraudulent or not based on the sampling that the U.N. Committtee did, are going to be thrown out, and how that makes you feel and all the rest of it, and so John could walk through the dark with him, and talk about how he felt when he felt bad about the outcome in Ohio, and I talked to him about what happened in 2000, and I talked to him about, you know, the experiences that I'd had in politics—

Charlie Rose:
With Al—

Hillary Clinton:
Yes. Exactly, so, it helped, it really did help, Charlie, because it was a visceral connection, and it wasn't something abstract, it was, we know, we know how it feels, we know what you're going through inside. And how unfair you think it is. But there comes a time when a leader of a democracy must support the institution. This is an institution that you must respect, just like in 2000, the Supreme Court made a decision I would not have made, in the Gore v. Bush case, but you accept that. And you go on, and you therefore strengthen democracy, and frankly, you strengthen your hand politically.

Charlie Rose:
Is part of this, from what you just said to me, part of the way you thought about losing the presidency, losing the nomination, and losing [unintelligible]? What you had to deal with?

Hillary Clinton:
Of course. You know, I am a, you know, a true believer in the American political system. And I think that it's rooted in who I am and how I was raised and my sense of patriotism and all these wonderful passions but very important values that I hold. So, I did the best I could, I fought as hard as I could, I made my share of mistakes, I did better in some areas than I thought I would, I was very gratified by the support that I had, but it came to an end. And I wanted to support at that time Senator Obama because he and I were much more in line on our world view, and what we wanted to see happen domestically, than the other party was, and so I threw myself in to helping to elect him. And nobody was more surprised than I when after the election, he called and asked me to consider taking this position.

Charlie Rose:
Is that the first time he'd mentioned it?

Hillary Clinton:
Absolutely.

Charlie Rose:
You'd never thought about it. I know—because he now says that he'd been thinking about it, for a while, he saw in you qualities that he wanted in a secretary of state. And he looked at all the other possibilities, and he said--

Hillary Clinton:
Yeah. Well—

Charlie Rose:
But he didn't bring it up to you until after the election?

Hillary Clinton:
Not at all. And when I started--

Charlie Rose:
Not the nomination, but the election.

Hillary Clinton:
The election? Absolutely. I mean, first of all, it wouldn't have been appropriate, and you know, I would have been incredulous.

Charlie Rose:
Well, there are some people who thought you promised it to him, my dear--

Hillary Clinton:
Well, that's—that's, I don't know anything about that, but what I do know is that after the election, when stories start coming out, I thought that it was absurd. Unbelievable.

Charlie Rose:
Why?

Hillary Clinton:
Oh, for a million reasons. But I--

Charlie Rose:
Well, name one. Why is that absurd because, I mean, he read team of rivals, he believed in the idea, it may have been overblown.

Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think I was very much happy about going back to representing New York.

Charlie Rose:
And playing a part in health care reform.

Hillary Clinton:
Absolutely.

Charlie Rose:
The passion of your life.

Hillary Clinton:
Passion of my life. And I'm thrilled by what happened in the House.

Charlie Rose:
And think it will pass in the Senate, and the president will sign it before 2010, you think?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, let's hope, as we're going to work for it. You know, as soon as the vote was final in the House, I called the president, I called the Speaker, I mean, I was thrilled at the, what has been such a long journey, and now the attention turns to the Senate.

Charlie Rose:
Okay, so you're now the Secretary, you acknowledge—you decided to accept it, because?

Hillary Clinton:
Because, when your president asks you to serve your country, I think you should say yes, if you can. And I also thought that--

Charlie Rose:
But you had moments in which you said, I said this is not my best interest, I'm the best person, whatever you thought.

Hillary Clinton:
I said all of that. Never again. I can't say, well how about so and so, don't you think so?

Charlie Rose:
Exactly, and I have a great life, in the Senate--

Hillary Clinton:
Absolutely.

Charlie Rose:
You could have Senate Majority Leader, perhaps?

Hillary Clinton:
I want to return to the Senate and I want to catch up on my sleep, all of those things. But I also thought --

Charlie Rose:
You were wrong about that.

Hillary Clinton:
I was very wrong about that -- that if the shoe had been on the other foot, and I had been asking him, I would have hoped that he would have said yes. And so how could I be standoffish and say, “Well, you know, I'd rather be a Senator, and you know, I want my life back,” and all these things that were certainly going through my mind.

Charlie Rose:
Someone watching the campaign, the Democratic campaign, might have said there's some space between how you view the world and he views the world, you being more hawkish, more something.
[laughter]

Hillary Clinton:
Well, look, I am very pleased at the relationship that the president and I have.

Charlie Rose:
What are you pleased about?

Hillary Clinton:
That it is very -- it's very collegial. It is personally, very positive. We see each other all the time, and we work very well together, and I think that we probably had people in both of our camps who were surprised by that and somewhat skeptical, but both of us understood what it is we had to do and do together given the array of problems we faced. So I am -- you know, look, I'm very committed to doing everything I can on behalf of my country and the president and the agenda we've set forth.

Charlie Rose:
There's no sharp disagreements between the way you two see the world?

Hillary Clinton:
Well, if there are, I wouldn't tell you.
[laughter]

Charlie Rose:
That suggests there are some.

Hillary Clinton:
No, no, no. No, it doesn't.

Charlie Rose:
But in the end it's his --

Hillary Clinton:
Look, he's the president, but what I really appreciate is we have a very robust process where everybody is heard, and there is quite a good back and forth, testing assumptions, you know, coming up with ideas. And on a couple of occasions I was kind of in a somewhat solitary position vis-à-vis the rest of the NSC.

Charlie Rose:
Look, just give me one example of that.

Hillary Clinton:
I can't, but I --

Charlie Rose:
Oh, just one.

Hillary Clinton:
Someday, Charlie, someday. You know, in about 10 years, we'll do this interview. But I went to the president and said, you know, “this is really what I would like you to think about, and here are the reasons for it,” and on one very important matter, you know, he agreed with me. And so, it's not just that you have, you know, discussions between the two of us, which we do, where we look at things from different angles, where we try to come up with an approach, but it's the larger team. Sometimes, you know, both the president and I are pushing the people on our teams to think differently and more creatively.

Charlie Rose:
All right, you have said you'll never run for president again.

Hillary Clinton:
Yes, I said that.
[laughter]

Charlie Rose:
Any other things you've said you'll never do again?

Hillary Clinton:
Oh well, yes, I'm sure there are, but at the moment I can't think of them.

Charlie Rose:
Thank you for this time. It's a pleasure to have this opportunity to talk to you.

Hillary Clinton:
Thank you, Charlie.

Charlie Rose:
From Berlin, Germany, a conversation with the secretary of state. This is, as we record this, November 9, 20 years after the wall came tearing down with momentous consequences, as the secretary has said, for Europe, for Russia, for the United States, and for the world. Thank you for joining us. See you next time.

[end of transcript]